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Status update - What to expect, when you are expecting OpenGL ES 2. - Page 4 — Gideros Forum

Status update - What to expect, when you are expecting OpenGL ES 2.

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  • Wow quite a long thread

    well hopefully @atilim will post a comment on this thread soon to clarify things. And we will back to our projects with happy face :)
    have fun with our games~
    http://www.nightspade.com
  • I think the guys are right in saying more visibility is required. I see the blog is up now so if someone (maybe @ar2rsawseen) posts something once a week it will make it look like things are happening for the casual observer. The blog could just give an update of what is happening to Gideros or if there is not much happening then mention a few highlights from the forums (new games, funny posts etc).

    Also the last pre-opengl2 release shouldnt use the existing release naming scheme (@atilim has already mentioned changing this) otherwise it will look like last years release. Not sure what to use but as long as it doesn't tie it to last year it would be good.

    Lastly @atilim , @deniz I know what is mentioned is criticism but remember it is constructive criticism by people who care about Gideros. At least consider what they say. My 2 cents :)
  • zoolaxzoolax Member
    @ar2rsawseen
    As side note I appreciate all the hard work you do to keep some life on the forum.
    All have been said.
    All I can do now to wait for Atilim , and Deniz to give us some updates.
    www.zoolax.com
  • It may be a bit too soon as I have not installed XCode5 and recompiled a gideros app to run on iOS7, but logically why should an app be incompatible with iOS7? Specially if it will be compiled with the latest iOS SDK. In regards to the native features like alertboxes, the API has not changed so the app should adapt (hopefully) other than that there is nothing that should break, we never had translucency and blur filters, so it would not make a dent anyways.

    @moopf, I think you can be a bit relaxed on this one as logically this fear of being incompatible might not be such an issue.

    This reminds me of the drastic change that Microsoft brought in from Windows 2000 to Windows XP, Apps had to have a manifest file, glad that those days are over and we do not have to do that any more.
    twitter: @ozapps | http://www.oz-apps.com | http://howto.oz-apps.com | http://reviewme.oz-apps.com
    Author of Learn Lua for iOS Game Development from Apress ( http://www.apress.com/9781430246626 )
    Cool Vizify Profile at https://www.vizify.com/oz-apps
  • I totally agree with the necessity of having a newsletter occasionally. I notice I've dropped off the top posters now because I've been dealing with other issues, but in the back of my mind I think about how to use Gideros.

    But there would be plenty of other people who didn't get quite so involved earlier on, and dropped out and completely forgot about Gideros.

    So a newsletter is a good way to jog people's memory, maybe tell others what the Gideros users are doing (extra marketing for their apps) and reassure them that it's not dead.

    Likes: OZApps

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  • denizdeniz Maintainer

    I want to say though @ar2rsawseen that I think you've been left a little like a lamb to the slaughter since you started. By your own admission you don't know everything that's going on but you're the one having to placate people as much as possible with the details you do have, or can extrapolate, as the owners write brief messages that say nothing.
    I think this is harsh and I am really offended by these words. Ar2sawseen is a member of this team and he talks on behalf of us. I will not answer any of these type of comments in the future. So I advise everyone to be calm and polite in the forum.
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  • denizdeniz Maintainer
    For people who criticize constructively: I understand that you are worried, but I assure you our user base is growing constantly and we are following the metrics carefully. We are a bigger community now and I am happy about it. Gideros is a great product, far from being dead. I am really sorry some of you feel this way but you of all the people should know, this is not the case.

    On the other hand, I think you missed my point. I never said, there will not be a forum or newsletter. On the contrary. I was mentioning, we are working on the release, and I do not know if you guys are watching the news but I can say we are very stressed and it is a difficult time for us. We are managing the effort carefully. That is all I wanted to say.

    If you noticed, we are making a lot of changes. Our team is growing. We are investing more resources to Gideros. Working on documentation and releases.

    So please keep calm and create games. :)
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  • atilimatilim Maintainer
    Do you realize that our latest release was 3 months ago? Of course it's not dead and of course active development continues. I'm moving to OpenGL ES 2.0 and Qt5 which is really quite work. Meanwhile Gideros' core also has additions like 16-bit textures, sound recording, exporting from command line, etc. I'll be of course testing with iOS7.
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  • I'm done with this. @deniz your answers are actually exactly what I'm talking about with the comment I made that 'offended' you. @atilim it means little now without actually giving some timelines.

    Anyway, I'll shut up now. Hopefully Gideros starts moving along at a pace again before I need to decide on what to use for my next project.
  • @deniz
    I am really sorry some of you feel this way but you of all the people should know, this is not the case.
    This is where it doesn't work Deniz and you know, @ar2rsawseen and @atilim know i support gideros : "all the people should know" is the problem.
    But how should we guess?
    Tell or -better- show us, that's all we ask.

    I believe you assume that what you know is communicated efficiently (if ever) which is not the case.
    Please take some time to reflect on that : "do we make sure that all the work done behind the scenes is known and appreciated by our users?"

    I come here often and that i miss a lot of things (a few people contacted me to know how the mesh api works for example. Meshes are so great but such a big mystery for all of us).

    @atilim
    Do you realize that our latest release was 3 months ago? Of course it's not dead and of course active development continues. I'm moving to OpenGL ES 2.0 and Qt5 which is really quite work.
    I want to make sure that you understand that we (at least I) don't question the amount of work you are doing.
    However, there is a gap between what you know and what you communicate. I started asking for more informations a few days ago, and it's important you realize that the product *looks* dead. This is key.
    If you think that's not the case (that it does not look dead), then you are mistaken.
    It looks dead have no doubt about that.
    We are following gideros every week (every day for some of us) and are not aware of what you are doing. What about the others?

    I notice that you share more informations when we ask directly here, I have no doubt that a newsletter/blog posts whatever would make things better.

    Please share more, that's all we ask.
    I do agree with @moopf that we need to project ourselves in the near future and know better how Gideros fits in our toolset.
    "Wait until it's ready" it's too vague, while i understand you want to avoid ETA in all cases. Just find a middle ground.

    I want to make sure again you understand there is nothing personal here about whether you are not working hard enough or whatever, nothing like that *at all*.
    We are all supporters of Gideros.

    On a last note I believe you take comments too personally, and are protecting your product (which is understandable) to a point where it becomes hard to see things from a distance.

    Please please understand what concerns are behind our questions because there is much more than what you replies seem to address.
    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps

  • So please keep calm and create games. :)
    image
    have fun with our games~
    http://www.nightspade.com
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  • @deniz
    I am really sorry some of you feel this way but you of all the people should know, this is not the case.
    @atilim
    Do you realize that our latest release was 3 months ago? Of course it's not dead and of course active development continues. I'm moving to OpenGL ES 2.0 and Qt5 which is really quite work.
    I want to make sure that you understand that we (at least I) don't question the amount of work you are doing.
    However, there is a gap between what you know and what you communicate. I started asking for more informations a few days ago, and it's important you realize that the product *looks* dead. This is key.
    If you think that's not the case (that it does not look dead), then you are mistaken.
    It looks dead have no doubt about that.
    We are following gideros every week (every day for some of us) and are not aware of what you are doing. What about the others?

    I notice that you share more informations when we ask directly here, I have no doubt that a newsletter/blog posts whatever would make things better.

    Please share more, that's all we ask.
    i think @Mells express perfectly the "feeling" that gideros users have. (or at least about me).
    this is the main reason i decided to move on another framework because support for other platform are for now vaporware... (at least for common user like me or as long as Gideros Team denies me and my feeling is that Gideros was a dying product... i hope i'm wrong anyway)

    anyway i like Gideros (and with my plugins i think shows this. i spent A LOT of my time for it and for free.!) and I am very sorry to poor communication.

    was better when Gideros was in beta... camunication was awesome! ... ohh good old times ....


    :)

    my 2 cents.


    TNT ENGiNE for Gideors Studio - Particle Engine, Virtual Pad, Animator Studio, Collision Engine - DOWNLOAD NOW !!! IT'S FREE!!! -
    www.tntengine.com
  • fxonefxone Member
    edited June 2013
    after some consideration I think that should be at the forum something like closed thread for PRO/Developement of Add-ons/Business/Team purposes, opened only for special subscribers (beyond me), because I do not have such feelings like you guys: @Mells, @GregBUG, @moopf, @bowerandy, @OzApps. For me as an enthusiast of this product and hobbyist, such opinions are unfair. You sometimes sound like "you are not succesfull at your projects because of Gideros team", which - as attitude - is a claim, unclear and childish to share your objections at so wide forum ;) I haven't yet seen such behaviours at any similar forum (Cocos2d, Corona etc). That's it.
  • MellsMells Guru
    edited June 2013
    @fxone
    Please let me the right to express myself on a public forum (I beg you).
    Also notice that you just made the list of some of the people who have spent a lot of time on the forums, helping new users, spreading the word, creating resources and blog posts, etc...
    @GregBug? Tnt engine. Particles + animation system + collisions etc
    @Moopf? Believe me, he spread the word a lot and is the kind of supporter you want to have for your product.
    @Bowerandy? Bhwax, anyone? Livecoding?
    @OzApps and his blog full of tutorials?
    Those guys have spent more time and money helping you than you realize.

    And look at how many users i have tried to help (even if i am just one among other people who help like @techdojo for ex) despite of my limited skills (but improving over time).

    Childish?
    I understand your needs, but why you are so offensive in last days. I would think, that you are from Erdogan's team (joke)
    Come on, now tell me another joke.

    Let's keep the discussion around what the team wants to communicate.

    Likes: hgvyas123

    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps
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  • Come on, now tell me another joke.

    here's the one

    image



    =))

    Likes: fxone, techdojo

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  • fxonefxone Member
    edited June 2013
    @fxone
    Come on, now tell me another joke.
    @Mells 100% agree :) childish joke and very unsophisticated by assumption: I tried only to defuse the bomb, which was putting.. ;)
  • i think that from a far perspective, assuming that the customer is always right, if this many people have complaints, that's a clear sign that something is wrong (with what happens and/or how it is communicated).
    you don't need to think if it is childish or not, it is just a fact that people are complaining, so there must be a reason. the team just have to find these reasons (there are many clues in this topic) and react, if possible. probably it is useless to be offended, after all this is a professional question primarily and not a personal one. it's just a plus that the people concerned are basically the biggest supporters of gideros (they raise the problem as they care, others might just silently move away).

    personal notes: good to hear that there are also people that are not discouraged. although, actually, i am, a bit. if i would choose a framework now, probably i would choose another one (with windows export and open-source community-developed), i'm just tied to gideros with my current projects. i hope in half a year i will be glad to be still here. so keep up the good work, looking forward to opengl 2 and windows export.
  • SinisterSoftSinisterSoft Maintainer
    edited June 2013
    I think it's just that people are excited about what is 'coming soon' and are frustrated because of the delays.

    I personally think that there has been a huge amount of visible work done on the website, documentation, plugins, etc and assume that the same thing has been happening with the anticipated 2013 version of the program too.

    When it arrives it should be great, we just have to have a little more patience - but an estimate of for how long would be nice... :)
    Coder, video game industry veteran (since the '80s, ❤'s assembler), arrested - never convicted hacker (in the '90s), dad of five, he/him (if that even matters!).
    https://deluxepixel.com
  • ar2rsawseenar2rsawseen Maintainer
    edited June 2013
    Ok let's try to deal with each problem one by one

    Checklist:
    Identify the problem
    1) The lack of communications between the team and community

    Identify the reasons
    1) We are all working from home without specific office hours, our working hours usually don't overlap
    2) There is a lack of communication between team members
    3) Forum is the only source of information.
    4) Distracting Atilim from coding for information decreases his productivity

    Solutions that we'll try to apply
    1) Increase communication channels with community (blogs, newsletter)
    2) Have weekly team meetings with reports
    3) Prepare bi-monthly/monthly public reports

    Any other suggestions?
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  • @ar2rsawseen, this sounds good for me. a roadmap would be also nice, but probably it is not feasible at this point, maybe when you jump over the obstructions you mentioned, together with the weekly meetings, it will be also possible to give better estimates for next releases/features.
    i appreciate that the team is facing the problems.

    Likes: eclisse

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  • zoolaxzoolax Member
    @ar2rsawseen
    As for me ,who is a paid client and using gideros to make a living.
    I will be satisfied with a weekly report on how is the project coming and how much progress is made.
    why?
    Because it will give me comfort at least that things are moving.and I will keep on working my project.and I am on the right direction.
    I think as long as you try to update us a bit weekly that can take less than 5 minutes.
    It will go a long way.
    So you do not get stressed about lots of things at once.
    Thanks
    www.zoolax.com
  • "it's ready when it's ready".

    big things, new open gl and a new version of ios to support.
    then again, I do hope some of the smaller annoyances get fixed too.
    http://esem.name/sound ♫ sound and music at ShadyLabs (Clouds of Steel, Aftermath Alvin)
  • john26john26 Maintainer
    edited June 2013
    @ar2rsawseen:

    My suggestion? You need a full time publicity officer who knows how to attract, retain and engage with customers and also spread the word about Gideros. (would help if he had industry contacts, a word in the ear of someone at EA could be all it takes to make you economically successful...) Programmers can't do this work as the skill set needed is orthogonal to that of programming, a totally different mindset is needed. And no one person can deal with programming and publicity simultaneously -- certainly Atilim should not be asked to do this.

    Look at Apple, they became successful when they had both Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs. Neither could have done it alone. Wozniak couldn't have publicised the company to save his life; Jobs never wrote a single line of code and could never have done Woz's job.

    Gideros has it's Wozniak (Atilim), now it needs a Jobs!

    And there's no point asking us about schedules of mailshots etc -- we are programmers! We don't know anything about publicity either (which is why our games sometimes don't get noticed)... you need to figure this out yourselves or employ someone who can do it for you. There is an art and science to publicity.

    Also, I think you've got to be more coherent as a company, talk to each other more, preferably work in the same office if possible. Keep regular hours.

    All the above may sound a bit boring, like an old fashioned company (CEO, VPs, secretary, marketing, publicity all that boring non-coding stuff). Maybe this is the sort of "corporate b*llshit" you wanted to avoid in forming Gideros. But that's what you need to set up a *real* company that charges *real* clients *real* money. Both Apple and Google (e.g.) started as friends doing cool stuff. They incorporated, formalised and made it big. If Gideros is more than a hobby you need to be more serious. (by "you" I mean Gideros of course)

    If you want to be just a bunch of friends who write code in your bedrooms then perhaps open source is the best way forward. I don't say that as a putdown at all. Open source is perfectly valid and it *is* possible to make money (ask Redhat).

    While writing this I got a mailshot entitled "Corona SDK is awesome' says game legend John Romero!". This proves:

    1) Corona sends out mailshots (do you?)
    2) Corona has heavyweight industry contacts

    See what I mean? Corona is technically inferior to Gideros in every respect but they are more successful because they have people dedicated to publicity and promotion.

    BTW, none of this is having a go at you, @a2rsawseen. I think you've handled this "crisis" very well with good humour and sympathy for user's needs but you don't have the information to give any real answers and that's a fault in Gideros I believe...
  • gorkemgorkem Maintainer
    @phongtt the reason I'm a bit (or more) away from forums is only lack of time, and nothing else.

    The point with Corona is they are heavily funded and Gideros is not (a lot). If we had 3 times more people, anything could be possible but time is limited. Some of the concerns raised here are right, and some are wrong as I know Atilim is working on Gideros actively but on the code side. Your positive comments will make it, negatives will break it. We are all human. Just consider twice before you post and eliminate distractions please :-)
  • ar2rsawseenar2rsawseen Maintainer
    @john26 oh we completely understand that there should be a separate employee taking care of such things, the problem is resources (financial mostly). And spending more time on getting more investments again delays the development (of course that does not mean that we are not doing it :) )

    But if there is anyone, with a contacts, and that would agree to work as a PR manager with a promise of a possible fortune, please contact us :)
  • atilimatilim Maintainer
    @john26 I totally agree all of your words. Also you can think of @ar2rsawseen and me with the similar roles. We both usually spend our times coding on Gideros.
  • atilimatilim Maintainer
    @gmarinov I know I've missed nearly all of your recommendations about sound improvements. I'll contact with you to discuss and implement these :)
  • zoolaxzoolax Member
    edited June 2013
    It is a bit easier to give advice while you are not in the other person shoes,I personally think if instead of advice we can come up with actual solution that would be beneficial.
    personally I suggested kickstarter,or any other site similar:

    1.we all contribute a bit of youtube video of our game.somebody pick the best one and put them together.
    2.put it up on kickstarter or many other sites,takes less than couple of hours.
    3.spine got over 100 k ,gideros is a major sdk,it can maybe get more.
    4.It gives it free advertising.

    Come up with contacts ,or solutions to help gideros,that is the way to do it.
    cheers
    www.zoolax.com
  • ar2rsawseenar2rsawseen Maintainer
    I think that Gideros situation is a little more different rather than projects on kickstarter, it could have been done couple of years, ago, but now there is a big user database and already some income (and we are seeing slow growth in it). But there is a more need in mentorship and contacts.

    Besides I know that kickstarter is only available for USA and UK, of course there are also other alternatives.
  • Just thought I should mention that I love Gideros and I think it is great. @atilim you done a fantastic job and that combined with the rest of the team (part of full time) make for an overall great.

    Keep up the good work :) and good luck for the political situation.
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