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A sad article... — Gideros Forum

A sad article...

plamenplamen Member
edited January 2013 in Relax cafe
Hey guys,
Here is what i found today in Wired: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/01/indie-developers-ios/
What do you think? Is it as bad as it says?
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Comments

  • techdojotechdojo Guru
    edited January 2013 Accepted Answer
    In a word "bollocks", utter codswollop.

    The problem is (and always has been) barrier to entry, in an attempt to "democratise" the creation of games (not necessarily a bad thing) Apple and Google have lowered the barrier to entry so low that anybody can (and does) call themselves an indie developer. 99% of this new breed of indies haven't got the first clue what they're doing or how to make quality product and so the respective app stores get filled with tons and tons of crapware.

    In any market with little or no barrier to entry this will always be a problem, the way to stand head and shoulders above the rest is to BE head and shoulders BETTER than the rest.

    < rant >

    My advice (as always)

    Build a better game - it's always been (and always will be) the best strategy for success. Granted it's getting harder and harder to be noticed amongst the crowd - so make a bigger noise, stand taller, shout louder, above all - think differently, innovate don't copy, polish, polish and polish some more.

    There was a time when a great experience but crippled with lower production values could make a success (if the experience is good enough it probably still can - just) but not for much longer, so the better indies will just "up their game" and embrace higher values (and this doesn't just mean more graphics - it's the whole package). Yes it will mean development costs may rise (in a time = money way) but as platforms get more powerful the overhead of tools like Gideros will have less and less impact and the inherent cost savings of developing in languages like Lua will help to balance this out, besides unless your creating multi-dvd epics and paying through the nose for licences the content costs won't spiral too high, and higher costs will help restore the barrier anyway.

    Any serious attempt at content creation requires investment

    Invest in game research
    Invest in procedural content generation
    Invest in better / faster development techniques
    Invest in your game
    Invest in your self

    If you haven't got the cash, invest your time, create solid working relationships with people who can provide what you need in exchange for what they need.

    If your not prepared to make the investment and believe in your product then please don't forget to shut the door on the way out.

    < / rant >

    - on an unrelated tangent (actually rant) about development costs - I was amazed to see the results of the recent Elite kickstarter, initially struggling to raise £1.25 million - is it me or does this figure grossly seem out of proportion with developers wages, especially as Frontier Developments is (apparently) a successful company and most of the back end engine work for this game has been in development (on and off) for the past 11 years???

    Most games / companies would be well "chuffed" to earn that kind of cash from the LIFE of a product, not bad when you've got all the profit you ever want to earn from a game before you even start working on it!

    Also @Scouser pointed out to me a little thing about the Elite "stretch goals",

    £1.4 million - make a Mac version three months later, so that's an extra £175,000 for three months work for one / two guys to handle some fiddly bits given that they supposedly know (and will plan for) multi-platform development from the off and write the code in a portable fashion so > %95 of the work will just compile anyway - where can I apply for that job.

    £1.5 million - we'll add in an extra 10 playable ships, so that's 10 ships at £10,000 each for a bit of 3D modelling, some data tables and a bit of playtesting - also not a bad job (could probably squeeze that one in whilst waiting for the Mac source to compile - where do I apply).

    Now if you will - compare the above to the Kickstarter for another game in a similar vein Limit Theory and it's homepage. This guy is planning to (and has actually done a lot of) creating the entire product HIMSELF for considerably less than the Elite Mac port...

    As you know - Elite did make £1.5 million (just), just hope David Brabben get's my CV before it's too late!

    Likes: moopf, Mells, hosamred

    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
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  • I think it depends on what expectations you go in with. As in any market there will only ever be a small number of people or companies that make huge amounts of money and apps is no different. At the start of the iOS app store, when competition was sparse and the big players hadn't jumped on board, of course it was easier to stand out and make a lot of money but, even then, only a small number did.

    If you're going in with an expectation to make millions, then the chances are you'll be bitterly disappointed. If, however, you're going in with an expectation to make a decent living then, whilst it's still difficult (and is in any market), your chances are much higher and there's no reason for you to give up. But you also have to have the understanding that it's a long haul and the chances are you won't make a living on your first few games. Nimblebit are a good case in point there, they'd released a few games before Pocket Frogs. And that was the one that suddenly brought them to people's attention and, after that, it was much easier for them.

    The article doesn't take into account the PC market, either. A massive, established gaming market. And yet, look at Braid. Look at Machinarium.Then on Xbox live, look at Spelunky, Fez or Super Meat Boy. My point is that there, in a market that is absolutely saturated with the big boys of gaming, indies still find a market if what they're offering strikes a chord with the public.

    What is noticeable in nearly all indie successes is that that success doesn't happen over night, it generally won't happen with your first game and that it certainly won't happen if you don't bring polish to what you're offering. I'd suggest anyone that's interested in indie games watch Indie Game: The Movie and also the recent Minecraft documentary. The first one, especially, shows glimpses of just how tough it is, and the reality of developing games on your own, or in a small group.

    So fundamentally, if you're doing this just because you think you'll make a fortune over-night, really do think long and hard about whether it's the right thing for you to do.

    Anyway, I rambled :D

    Likes: techdojo

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  • techdojotechdojo Guru
    edited January 2013
    Anyway, I rambled :D
    and I ranted, "so let's call the whole thing off"... :)

    (also wan't to throw in a shout out to Desktop Dungeons as well!)

    Likes: moopf

    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
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  • (also wan't to throw in a shout out to Desktop Dungeons as well!)
    I'm sure there's a few I've missed off, was too busy making the point itself :D
  • People create art and content (of any type) because they have (or should have) a passion to do so. The truly passionate will always find a way.

    (also added a back link on the original article - so Gideros might get some free press out of it, no commission required thank you very much - I'm passionate about Gideros ;) )
    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
  • MellsMells Guru
    edited January 2013
    No this is not sad?
    Some people in the "indies" scene are business owners who want to make games to make money.
    Game devs are often people who want to make money to keep on making games.
    During the gold rush, some could succeed only because there was a space to fill whether they belong to the first or the second group (first made more money I think).

    1. "Indies" doesn't mean much
    The barrier to call ourselves "indies" is very low : when someone says "the failure rate among indies is very high" -> SURE. Not everyone is skilled to produce something good enough.

    a) There is a huge number of people that jumped in because they can code just a little.
    They lack experience.
    b) Also some people work in an industry for years and still are very bad at what they do.

    Should they be part of the % of "indies"?
    If yes, then it makes sense that most of them fail.

    2. Being "skilled" is not enough
    There is a huge gap between knowing how to turn the engine of the car on and driving in the middle of the city (with rules, priorities).

    Most of the indies (illustrators, musicians, etc) don't know anything about running a business and they don't want to learn.
    They have always been taught "follow your dream, bring your creations to the world and one day it will work" and this is what they do : they create something that appeals to themselves (ONLY).
    That's not the way to run a business.

    Technical skills + business knowledge is a requirement.
    If you don't have both, find a partner or hire someone that can do the other part better than you.
    If you have nothing, find money and hire people that can do both.

    I think it's fair that people that are not skilled fail.
    I think it's fair that people that can't (and don't want) to run a business fail.

    This is fair if you are ready to invest your resources to make products that fill some people's needs and do it in a sustainable way.

    3. US ≠ The World
    There are millions of people in the world that don't own a smartphone yet.
    They are still using a feature phone. Some of them don't even have electricity.
    The World will always need products and services that make their lives easier/better/more entertaining.
    Smartphones are the perfect channel for that and the rate of adaption shows no slow down.

    Most of the news writers don't even know that the world is bigger than their own view (their room).

    4. Temple Run 2
    This article is disguised but this is paid advertising.
    Temple Run 2 is out.
    A bit provocative title, and this is it (more?
    "Apple’s Favorite Strategy Game Is a Financial Disaster"
    "Why Big Game Publishers Make Sucky Apps (Hint: It’s You)")

    They win, because we are talking about it and offering backlinks (we went to see the article, right?).

    @techdojo
    the only thing that (from past experience as an illustrator) I don't fully agree is "Build a better game".
    Having a good game is the basis ("good" = meets some people's needs in my dictionary, has nothing to do with graphics or code) but if people focus on that without acknowledging the fact that it's only a part of the equation, they are going to fail hard.

    But I +10 that part :

    Invest in game research and market analysis
    Invest in procedural content generation
    Invest in better / faster development techniques
    Invest in your game
    Invest in your self
    Invest in others (Be helpful, and get help)
    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps
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  • @Mells. Well my point to start this was a bit different. Its not about how good or bad is someones app or game. Its sad that to make your signal visible over the enormous amount of noise without the money of AAA studio or publisher is just not possible anymore. This is what makes me sad. I don't expect to become a millionaire of my first game. I dream to be able to fund my next project with it. In my part of the world this means really, really low expectations. Basically these guys said that no mater quality of the product it will stay low under the radar without serious budget for marketing and advertizing.
  • MellsMells Guru
    edited January 2013
    @plamen
    Its sad that to make your signal visible over the enormous amount of noise without the money of AAA studio or publisher is just not possible anymore.
    1. That article was pretty bad anyway so don't assume that everything stated there are facts
    2. The advantage of the big ones is that they can create networks of apps faster, and bigger.
    They benefit from multiple entry points to their networks, and once you are inside and want to play another app, you will be redirected to another app on the network.

    One of the strategy that we (small ones) can follow is to build our own network based around an idea/niche so we get more visibility for the minority of our apps that necessitate more investment.

    There are opportunities but we need to adapt. The best thing is to differentiate ourselves and find our 1000 true fans. (see Seth Godin's Tribes).
    Basically these guys said that no mater quality of the product it will stay low under the radar without serious budget for marketing and advertizing.
    This statement is nothing new : "Without money you can't succeed".
    This is has always been true and false at the same time.

    There are ways, we need to adapt and it's totally achievable.
    Let's do it :)

    Likes: hosamred

    twitter@TheWindApps Artful applications : The Wind Forest. #art #japan #apps
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  • @techdojo
    the only thing that (from past experience as an illustrator) I don't fully agree is "Build a better game".
    I think that it depends on your definition of "better", I agree with what you say about market analysis again this comes down to your WHY. Why are you doing this, what are you trying to achieve. If your making art, aspire to make "better" art, if your making games, aspire to make "better" games, if you want to run a successful business then aspire to make a "better" business.
    Its sad that to make your signal visible over the enormous amount of noise without the money of AAA studio or publisher is just not possible anymore.
    Sorry this is utter rubbish, harder maybe, impossible never. Without sounding too much like a cliché impossible is two letters too long. It's like I say to my kids - there's no such word as cant. Nothing worthwhile was ever achieved without effort and hardwork.
    I dream to be able to fund my next project with it. In my part of the world this means really, really low expectations. Basically these guys said that no mater quality of the product it will stay low under the radar without serious budget for marketing and advertizing.
    Then stop dreaming and start working "better" - enbrace Kaizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen), if mankind had listened to all the nay sayers and people who said things couldn't be done or were not worth trying, we'd still be freezing our naked butt's off huddled together in caves, waiting for an old mammoth to drop down dead outside so we could eat!

    "Do or do not - there is no try!"
    read my sig and never listen to anyone who tell's you something can't be done!

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    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
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  • fxonefxone Member
    edited January 2013
    @Plamen Don't worry, there is also something like kind of whisper marketing (twitter, fb,g+). You have a lot of pros at your project for now. So keep going and "Clouds of Steel" will be success!

    Likes: MoKaLux

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  • @Plamen - I didn't mean to infer that your doing a bad job, from what I've seen so far "Clouds of Steel" IS a better game and kudos to you for getting this far. Don't give up, don't get disheartened. The road to success is hard, but it IS achievable.

    Ramp up your youtube videos detailing the progress of the game, create a facebook fan page, keep your development blog up to date. Embrace with your fans, give them a say in any design decisions, run a competition to allow people to be characters in your game, involve your target audience (for audience read market!)

    If you don't make noise about your game, who is going to?

    A friend of mine just passed over 4 MILLION downloads of an Android screen saver (his paid downloads are well in excess of 100,000), yes it's a good product and yes it's polished till it gleams, so are a lot of others that don't make it, BUT the difference is he's probably spent as long marketing and positioning the app as he has developing it. Simple things like Split AB testing, testing different descriptions, testing customer responses to different text, responding to customer comments, localising the app to as many languages as possible, supporting as many devices as possible - all this took time and effort, most of which most programmers haven't got a clue about (or couldn't be bothered to do), but isn't rocket science. Anybody with enough brains and determination to actually complete a game could do this, anybody that want's it bad enough that is...

    Likes: hosamred

    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
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  • One thing is for sure, you do not know what will be the next angry birds. Though I liked Cut the rope more than angry birds, AB is more popular. When Bubble Ball hit the million downloads, many felt that there was nothing special in that game, but the media and the hype took it further to about 8 million downloads.

    So, as @techdojo said, you need to believe in yourself and get a product out, it might not necessarily be the million dollar cheque, but it would be a start. Plus keep to trying to make it polished and worthy of the downloads. The problem is that there are more half-baked products on the store and increasing and there are the big names that spend a million dollars and make a couple of million off that. So the userbase (which is also you and me) would spend that dollar on the one that looks slicker than the other.

    @Planem, I have said that earlier, Clouds of Steel would be one of the many AAA products created with Gideros and a flagship product.

    I believe that in many cultures is is said that when a door closes the powers to be (read as 'god' for those that believe) opens another. So lets assume for a minute that the app store gold rush is over there are several more avenues available. It is about being a bit creative and tapping those. In a worst case scenario, think if all the developers stopped making app from tomorrow, what would happen then? So have an app on the market, be part of the bigger picture. Give it a shot, who knows your idea might be translate into something big.

    Do not bother with calling yourself Indie or a studio. It is all the same at the end of the day, it is just about the resources that would differentiate your status. No one buys or does not buy unless you are an evil corporation (where people might buy more of your products).
    twitter: @ozapps | http://www.oz-apps.com | http://howto.oz-apps.com | http://reviewme.oz-apps.com
    Author of Learn Lua for iOS Game Development from Apress ( http://www.apress.com/9781430246626 )
    Cool Vizify Profile at https://www.vizify.com/oz-apps
  • When Bubble Ball hit the million downloads, many felt that there was nothing special in that game, but the media and the hype took it further to about 8 million downloads.
    Me included, the game seemed basic at best, I think it's the fact that Robert was 14 at the time helped with the publicity. Ironically - I think Corona and Moai have probably made more riding on the coattails of Bubble Ball's success than the original developer did.

    In this instance Robert's age was the unique twist on the story - what's YOUR unique twist?


    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
  • OZAppsOZApps Guru
    edited January 2013
  • Well, don't get me wrong. I am not going to give up. It's just frustrating how often i see this kind of articles lately. I can't hide the fact they affect my enthusiasm.
  • Well, your game looks great. I think it has a lot of potential. This sort of thing is true in every industry. There is an element of luck to the amount of success with anything, at best you can skew your chances by doing things to minimize risk to increase your odds (advertising, catching game, intuitive UI, etc etc).

    There are pros and cons to everything. As the gates of entry become easier for more people to enter, there will undoubtedly be lots and lots of junk, but at the same time there may be some real gems that stand out that maybe never would have had a chance to see the light of day if it weren't so easy to get out there.

    I'm pretty new to exploring mobile and even making my own games really and it was pretty daunting when I first started researching things, but I think in the end we just need to keep chugging away and if we're proud in our work then we just have to trust in it and do what we can.
  • A lot of times the writers of these articles have their own agendas usually fuelled by money or some other purpose, maybe it's shock journalism for the sake of getting an article sold, or maybe the author is venting his own lack of success and trying to find an excuse or someone else to blame.

    My advice (for the usual $0.02) is ignore all the nay-sayers and if in your heart / gut your know your on the right path then keep going! Listening to negative content is a guaranteed recipe to pull you down. Personally I never read the tabloids or the glossy gossip mags and try to avoid as much negative news / press / TV as possible.

    Go listen to some inspirational music, eat some good food, appreciate a nice view (etc etc) and get your "mojo" back.
    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
  • keszeghkeszegh Member
    edited January 2013
    Heh, i need to add my comment, primarily as a player of games, just to give hope to some desperate people. i'm always looking for original games which are not just another physics-based/fps/strategy games etc and for ones which have original design (i don't like the kitchy one actually). like for pc it was world of goo or much more braid and on android my favourite (by far) is beyond ynth. So although the plethora of stupid high (and low)-quality but boring/unoriginal games can make it harder that i find those games which i like, i will always make efforts to find games which are fun to play.
    so in case you make a game which has idea+design both on average and at least one better, then i think you will always find users like me, which may be a minority but still enough to make a living. so i don't worry about @plamen making a living from his game eg. (although i hope that it will have some original take on the type of game he is making, which is a bit too-well-represented on flash-pc-homepages; designwise i have no worries).
    for this same reason (maybe i'm too optimistic) i believe if i make something which for me has these qualities then there should be some people willing to play it and so many of them will find it apparently. but my developer-opinion is not too important as so far i almost did not publish anything.

    Likes: techdojo

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  • What about Cover Orange.
    REAL programmers type copy con filename.exe
    ---------------------------------------
  • techdojotechdojo Guru
    edited February 2013
    Did you mean http://www.flasharcadegamessite.com/24755-Cover-Orange.html

    That's actually a neat little game, is there an app store version?? It could do quite well and would appeal a lot to the kind of people who buy app store games.

    Obviously I've no idea how successful the game is from a commercial standpoint, but with not much effort it could be rebranded and used as a marketing tool offering / opening up different avenues for potential revenue streams.
    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
  • hgvyas123hgvyas123 Guru
    edited February 2013
    here is the appstore version

    https://itunes.apple.com/in/app/cover-orange/id405229260?mt=8

    and my game save the animal from ninja was also inspired from that :D

    :)
  • @techdojo actually that game was made by some Russian team and when they got publisher I've heard they've made some good money, if I remember correctly from interview it was about 500K $ from first couple of months. So yes, it was/is successful :)

    Likes: hgvyas123

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  • techdojotechdojo Guru
    edited February 2013
    See - word of mouth does work, that's one extra copy delivered that would have otherwise been missed.

    @hgyv123 - noticed your app seems to have had a little spike in downloads recently, any idea why that is?

    Also as an aside.

    I realise English isn't your first language but... The description on your app is terrible, the English is all wrong, the grammer is broken and there are spelling mistakes all over the place. These are the little details that help to make the difference - personally if I see something like that I wouldn't ever bother downloading the app regardless of how good it looks, in my mind if the developer can't bother to get the app description right, what chance does the game have?

    Now so's not to think that I'm being unfair, I took the liberty of rewriting your app description, feel free to use it if you want.

    --------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------

    A superb exciting physics based puzzle Game.
    If you like games in a similar vein to the likes of "Angry Birds", "Blast Monkeys", "Bunny Shooter", "Cover Orange" or "Farm Tower" then you'll love this game.

    Why not give it a try (it's free) and if you like it, please consider leaving a rating.


    The animals are in trouble from a force of deadly Ninja's so the government has hired you to save the day.

    Saving the animals is your job in the beautiful game, your reward will be lot's of fun.

    You have to drag the objects (wheels, baseball bats, magic sticks, footballs, basketballs etc) and drop them in such a way that they will cover the animals.

    When you've dropped all the objects, a team of deadly ninja's will appear - if any of the animals get hurt then the ninja will win and you'll be out of a job!

    Save the animals and you'll be taken to the next level.

    There's a whole zoo full of animals to save (Lions, Monkeys, Hippos, Peacocks, Zebras, Elephants, Pigs, Rhinos, Leopards, Penguins and Cows), and lots more coming in future updates.

    Features

    * 30 levels of physics based puzzle action
    * Realistic realtime physics
    * Support for Android 1.6+
    * HD graphics
    * Realistic Jungle music
    * Easy to play (but hard to solve)
    * Blast mode and Fruit mode coming soon!

    If you have any problems with the game, please contact me at

    tigercubstudio@gmail.com

    Now what are you waiting for, there are animals to save...

    Change log

    version 1.1
    version 1.2
    Fixed the music issue
    "Continue to play, even if app not running" bug fixed - sorry :(
    Added extra screen shots to help people understand how the game works

    --------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------
    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
  • hgvyas123hgvyas123 Guru
    edited February 2013
    noticed your app seems to have had a little spike in downloads recently, any idea why that is?

    ------>nup no idea for that.

    Thanks for the description i will replace this tonight on market [ currently in office :( ]

    :)

  • Your welcome, I hope it helps.

    Likes: hgvyas123

    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
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  • There's always someone telling you why you shouldn't do something, or why it won't work. Don't listen to them and do it anyway!

    I've made a fair bit of money over the years in areas that people told me were a waste of time. I shudder to think where I'd be now if I'd paid heed to such nonsense!

    If you love making games, make games and see where it takes you. Don't let an article like this put a dent in your momentum.

    I have a quote on a scrape of paper on my desk that reads: "Keep doing your work and don't worry about the result"

    (My wife scrawled on the opposite side "Focus on the result and GET IT FINISHED!" But that's beside the point. :D )

    Likes: phongtt, techdojo

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  • Well,the fact is, it is very difficult to get noticed,if the app easily blends into the norm.
    but that goes for any thing ,any thing is difficult,being in food sector, fashion sector,sport,...
    you name it.
    And as far as the article goes ,you have to remember that is one point of view.
    At the same time we can look towards other developers who become successful(Meaning small group or individuals).There are still many of them.
    And I really dislike the label indie developer,dose it matter,what matters is your product do people want to play it or not.is it fun or not?
    The point I am making are super obvious ,every body knows most of them.
    Anything you want to do there millions of negative opinion and some positive.
    I am not saying to be this dreamy crazy positive person,no, look at the truth,and do not make it worse than it is.
    These are the facts:
    1.mobile business is very young and it will get bigger(just google it)
    2.there many people out there who are small groups ,or individuals who are making hit
    apps everyday(just look at google play charts or on app store.)
    3.As a small developers we have many advantages ,that we have to take into the count and take the full advantage of.
    and minimize our disadvantages as much as we can.
    I have worked for a big cooperation before(Elec***** A**) ,and they made an app with lots of marketing and a team of 8 skilled people,and all the buzz and resources,and the name brand,when the app came out it had 3000 downloads.
    To be honest in most cases a team more than 2 people in app development most of the times becomes counter productive.
    As in big cooperation most likely most of the energy goes toward useless politics and bad decisions.and most of people want to get paid,and they just want to get it done and keep their job.
    In the end of day I ask myself how bad I really want it.


    www.zoolax.com
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  • To me the article has an upside, it will put some people of which means less developers to compete against :)

    In the end there is no hard and fast rules about how to make a successful game. So if you don't try you will never know if yours will be the next great game. My $0.02

    Likes: techdojo, phongtt

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  • To me the article has an upside, it will put some people of which means less developers to compete against :)
    It's almost like a self-regulating barrier to entry, no matter how low you set it, something will happen to make it rise up again!

    If you want it bad enough, and are prepared to work hard enough towards getting it, you'll get it!

    WhiteTree Games - Home, home on the web, where the bits and bytes they do play!
    #MakeABetterGame! "Never give up, Never NEVER give up!" - Winston Churchill
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